Takeways from Pavel's newer works

pet'

More than 5000 posts
Hello,

G. Hackenschmidt stated that "health cannot be divorced from strength"

IMO, you can never be "too" strong, provided you:
- can recover from the practice
- balance the practice with the sport specific requirements (if any), such as speed, power, endurance, etc...

I have never been that strong and "well rounded" since I use this simple wisdom.

Kind regards,

Pet'
 

guardian7

More than 500 posts
Good to see I could easily pass the SFG 1 Open Class 150-220lbs test at 58 yrs.
I thought it was a 24kg KB..
My goal in 2020 is to pass this level with a 32kg without too much stress using Q&D, S&S, Delta 20 Protocols with GTG pullups and pistols daily.

Re too much strength...I'm not sure there is "too much".
Adequate strength would be that level that allows one to perform their daily needs without physical stress.
However, having greater strength available for the unexpected is ALWAYS a plus, especially in certain vocations (LE, Fire, for instance).
Recall Pavel's goal is strength, and his definition. It encompasses far more than just a huge squat number or bench press.
I've noticed reading, listening and attending several seminars by Russians and those that have trained with Russians that the Russian definition of strength encompasses all aspects. My guess is that most of these trainers would view a professional rock climbers strength as far superior to that of an NFL lineman.
How many reps?
For those over 50, I think reaching the standards and then trying to maintain them or adding reps maybe the best approach for most people. Charles Staley has a good quote. After a certain age, "Maintaining is gaining."
 

guardian7

More than 500 posts
Limit Strength Is The Foundation of Power and Speed

Initially, increasing Limit Strength increases Power and Speed. That means Limit Strength Training should be the focus for Novice and many Intermediate Lifter in the development of Power and Speed.

However, if only Limit Strength is trained...

Lifting Weights Will Make You Slow

This old adage isn't completely wrong. Research has demonstrated that if Limit Strength Training only is performed, Limit Strength is increased at the expense of Power and Speed.

This has to do with...

Muscle Fiber Conversion

Basically, different type of Fast Twitch Muscle Fiber are developed with Limit Strength Training and Power/Speed Training.

Fast Twitch IIa are utilized more in Limit Strength Movcements.

"Super" Fast Twitch are utilized more in Power and Speed Movements.

The body converts one type of Fast Twitch over to another, dependent on the training modality.

Limit Strength only training converts "Super" Fast Type IIb/x to Fast IIa.

Power and Speed only training converts Fast Type IIb/x to "Super" Fast Type IIb/x.

Couch Potatoes

Ironically, research has shown that Couch Potatoes have more "Super" Fast Twitch Muscle Fiber than athletes who only train Limit Strength; Limit Strength athletes converted more "Super" Fast to Fast.

However, when Limit Strength Only Athletes took time off from training, the Fast Twitch Muscle Fiber gained was converted back to it origin "Super" Fast Twitch Muscle Fiber; homeostasis.

A Comparison of Strength and Power Characteristics Between Power Lifters, Olympic Lifters, and Sprinters https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/626b/e06f0352b6af0b3eb17018856b16b74b85a1.pdf

This research provides some interesting information comparison between the Limit Strength, Power and Speed of these athletes.

Dr Mike Stone

Stone is regarded as one of the Guru's of Strength Training; formally working with Olympic Lifters at the US Olympic Training Center in Colorado Springs.

In an interview, Dr Mike Stone was ask what American Olympic Lifters needed to do to become better, place higher, in competition.

Stone's replied, "They need to get stronger."

The Take Home Message

1) Lifting Weights Make You Slow: Heavy Lifting Only will make you slower.

2) Strength Is The Foundation: Initially, to Power and Speed are increased with Limit Strength Training. However, at some point, Power and/or Speed Training need to be implemented.

3) Conjugate Training: Limit Strength need to be maintained and/or increased in conjunction with Power and/or Speed Training. It's a balancing act; one strength enhances the other.

Kenny Croxdale
It is interesting that the boxing coach cited in S&S found the most value in swings and TGUs, not barbells. Perhaps this is partially for convenience in the gym but still.
 

conor78

More than 500 posts
Certified Instructor
I know when I boxed as a young fella weights were frowned on by the coach as he believed it made you stiff and obviously had implications for weight class etc You can see with Anthony Joshua his team moved away from that style of bodybuilder training and back towards sports specific drills such as padwork and sparring. Joshua certainly looked more fluid in his second fight with Ruiz. Kettlebells are a good fit for combat sports. I’m surprised more boxing coaches don’t integrate them into their programs.
 

kennycro@@aol.com

More than 500 posts
It is interesting that the boxing coach cited in S&S found the most value in swings and TGUs, not barbells.
Boxing is not a sport where raw strength is an attribute worth chasing...
Strength Is The Foundation

To reiterate, the foundation of power and speed are built on strength; Limit Strength.

Boxing is a power sport, most sports are. To increase power and maintain it some strength training need to be employed in their program.

I know when I boxed as a young fella weights were frowned on by the coach as he believed it made you stiff and obviously had implications for weight class etc
Lifting Weights Makes You Slow

As I noted in my previous post, Limit Strength Training will make you slower due to the shift in Fast Twitch Muscle Fiber.

Stiff

Flexibility is to some degree lost with...

1) Partial Range Movements

2) An imbalance of over training agnostic muscles and undertraining antagonist muscles.

The Second Most Flexible Athletes

Olympic Lifer are the second most flexible group of athletes, behind Gymnast.

The primary reason is the Olympic Lifers preform Full Range Movements.

With that said, a well written and performed weight training program that employs Full Range Movements increases flexibility; Dumbbell Bench Press, Full Squats, etc.

moved away from that style of bodybuilder training
Hypertrophy Training

Hypertrophy Training for a athlete that want to move up a weight class is fine. The downside of it for athletes is Hypertrophy Training alone decreases power and speed.

Cluster Set Hypertrophy Training

For power and speed athlete who want to increase muscle mass while maintaining and/or increasing power/speed and strength, Cluster Set Hypertrophy Training is a key element.

boxing coaches don’t integrate them into their programs.
Lack of Knowledge

Boxing, Football, Basketball, Wrestling Coaches are specialist in their sport. They are not Strength and Conditioning Coaches.

Thus, one of the main reason that these coaches don't implement Kettlebell Training and are not familiar with how to writing a good Strength Training Program is due to a lack of knowledge. I see this a lot in the field that I work in.

Kenny Croxdale
 

pet'

More than 5000 posts
Hello,

It will be a little out of the post.

In addition to Kenny's detailled post, I would add that we are not born with the same abilities.

For instance, if boxing is the example, some boxers are naturally faster, some other have more endurance, etc... So even if WE are talking about the same sport, we may have different neeeds si different training programmes.

Eventually it depends on what we are looking for:
- general health
- sport specific

Kind regards,

Pet'
 

North Coast Miller

More than 2500 posts
Boxing is a power sport, most sports are. To increase power and maintain it some strength training need to be employed in their program.
Some strength training is certainly beneficial if not essential for boxing, but at its essence boxing is an endurance sport. Limit strength is not terribly important, as power when punching comes far more from technique than from muscular strength - this topic has been discussed many times on the forum. Added mass on the limbs is going to do as much or more than any other factor, but this needs to be balanced against weight class considerations.

Some of the best all time fighters did little more than practice their sport and do some supplemental endurance work/calisthenics.
 

North Coast Miller

More than 2500 posts
Which really begs the question, "How much strength is enough?"
Ultimately it comes down to goals and digestive prowess. You will reach a point at any given bodyweight where further general increases in strength begin to plateau. At this point one can specialize and become stronger at fewer movements via technique improvement, or you can out on more lean mass.

The further you push this from your average BMI the more pivotal nutrition becomes.

The point where enough becomes too much is when you accept an increasing chance of injury to acquire diminishing returns. This implies you didn't have a specific goal when you started, or it changed over time.
 

pet'

More than 5000 posts
Hello,

As mentioned by @North Coast Miller , breaking plateaus requires additonal energy.

Most of the time it requires a change in either the programming or the programme itself.

If we consider some of Pavel's programmes, they are really long term oriented, such as S&S or TNW. Maybe progression is longer that way, but less physically demanding.

Kind regards,

Pet'
 

CMHoward

Double-Digit Post Count
For those over 50, I think reaching the standards and then trying to maintain them or adding reps maybe the best approach for most people. Charles Staley has a good quote. After a certain age, "Maintaining is gaining."
I agree and would add that trying to add weight (heavier KB) past a certain point is not necessarily as good idea.
I thought I owned the 32kg kettlebell on TGUs and was mostly successful when I moved to the 40kg...until I wasn't. Now I'm fighting this niggling shoulder issue because I had a fight with the KB on the way down.
Had I of just focused on the 32 for a few more weeks/months it probably wouldn't have happened.
Pride and ego got the better of me.
Now it's back to the 24kg swings only and no overhead movements for...months more than likely which means I'll be back to square one on snatches, pull ups, C&P.
I'm not even sure I can do dips or push ups any longer...
 

william bad butt

More than 300 posts
I think we're all different and have different potential, much of which is genetic. I weigh 220lbs. Without tackling it like a real athlete the likes of which are everywhere on this forum, even though I tried pushing my S&S past 32kg for the swings and 40kg for the getups, I never really achieved it as something I could keep up and keep on doing in a reasonable timeframe (i.e. less than 30-45 minutes). I could say the same for my deadlift - 330lbs for reps was "comfortable" but getting up to 370 lbs or a bit over (with some work!) was a bit of a strain to maintain. Dips though I can do sets of 10 when I want to. I can do the one arm one leg pushup, even two in a row with my right arm. Chinups - 5-7 "comfortably". These are some kind of natural strength limits for me it seems. The pistol squat is a nightmare. I can endure hours of fairly intense judo and kendo (a kind of fencing) training though.

Strength does matter in my martial arts but it is important to use the strength in accordance with technique and not just on its own in a faulty way. This can make being too strong actually a problem for learning skills as you can force-make things work that won't work therefore against another strong person who is resisting. I'll throw in that getting generally stronger overall is clearly a true thing - arms are arms, legs are legs, core is core. You can get your body stronger without needing to train the exact movement patterns of the sport (for judo this is practically impossible as your body is all twisted up in weird ways!)
Even after all of these years, I am still improving and adding weight to the bar. I attribute most of this to improved discipline (holding myself accountable), training smarter, improving diet, and prioritising sleep.

Yeah, I think it is just a case of diminishing returns and opportunity costs. If you are not a professional athlete, what else could you be doing with that time and focus?
I agree. While training for a Power lifting meet this year, one of my workout sessions was taking hours to complete. This is not desirable for me. Keeping this time as brief as possible (while still adding weight to the Bar)is my ongoing struggle.

I think it's when gaining strength becomes a detriment to other attributes. Like the guys who get their deadlift so high/packing on so much muscle but can't seem to tie their own shoes.

The Pareto's law thing would be really important if you play a sport.
I am still not that strong yet to have had any detrimental losses of other attributes (at least I am not aware of it). One area may be my midsection. I have traded some mobility for stability. This was a conscious decision to alleviate back issues. Your example hits home. As a result, it is "slightly" more difficult to tie my own shoes.
 

Kozushi

More than 2500 posts
I agree and would add that trying to add weight (heavier KB) past a certain point is not necessarily as good idea.
I thought I owned the 32kg kettlebell on TGUs and was mostly successful when I moved to the 40kg...until I wasn't. Now I'm fighting this niggling shoulder issue because I had a fight with the KB on the way down.
Had I of just focused on the 32 for a few more weeks/months it probably wouldn't have happened.
Pride and ego got the better of me.
Now it's back to the 24kg swings only and no overhead movements for...months more than likely which means I'll be back to square one on snatches, pull ups, C&P.
I'm not even sure I can do dips or push ups any longer...
I had a shoulder issue and it got better by laying off weights for half a year. Have hope.

My other thought is that when Pavel says that S&S with the 32kg is good enough for most men, we need to trust him on that point. All you need is Simple, that's it.

Regarding weights and sport. From what I see around me amongst pros or high level folks in judo and kendo, they tend to work with weights that match approximately their own bodyweight, either bodyweight exercises themselves (dips, planks, jump squats. running etc) or doing things with a bar with their bodyweight or similar on it for high pulls, deadlifts, squats etc. Also, the weights seem to come out more as they are gearing up for a big competition a few months later and are not so big for general training the rest of the year. In any case, you need a base of strength to keep your body intact when training a sport. I get the feeling that somehow one's own bodyweight is something your body naturally can handle without sacrificing too much in other areas, but bodyweight-level strength is also something you can easily lose if you don't maintain it. In my chosen sports you tend to overdevelop some parts of the body and underdevelop others leading to strain problems for your body frame. My head judo coach is very big on weight training as a way to make you better able to handle the rigours of training.

As many as three of us at the judo club train S&S, and several others are Pavel followers. I didn't know that at first, but over time after getting to know people the truth came out that not a few of us are big Pavel followers. Interesting.

I trust that S&S provides me with everything I need in terms of supplementary strength (in the whole sense of the term) needs for my sports and life, along with long walks and a bit of bodyweight stuff for fun when I feel like it. Pavel recommends getting outside for hikes and similar.
 
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